Author Topic: Don't mix guns?  (Read 4763 times)

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serpentsmile

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Don't mix guns?
« on: February 22, 2009, 07:32:20 pm »
I was reading through how to fit/not fit a ship and i was confused as to why you don't fit guns with different ranges. it said not to fit a ship with guns with different ranges and to just change the ammo to fit the range. I'm running a harbinger that use heavy afocal masers but if i don't have a few smaller guns what will i do when frigates get within 5k meters and all my drones are gone? if i understand correctly, tracking sucks for larger guns so i wouldn't be able to hit them and they'd eat me up by being inside my range. Could you clear this up for me? thanks!

Dirpious

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Re: Don't mix guns?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2009, 07:41:16 pm »

Lucoz

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Re: Don't mix guns?
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2009, 12:52:04 am »
I was reading through how to fit/not fit a ship and i was confused as to why you don't fit guns with different ranges. it said not to fit a ship with guns with different ranges and to just change the ammo to fit the range. I'm running a harbinger that use heavy afocal masers but if i don't have a few smaller guns what will i do when frigates get within 5k meters and all my drones are gone? if i understand correctly, tracking sucks for larger guns so i wouldn't be able to hit them and they'd eat me up by being inside my range. Could you clear this up for me? thanks!

Quick answer is drones

twsowerby

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Re: Don't mix guns?
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2009, 01:57:00 am »
The half decent drone capacity of the harninger is the most obvious solution to close range frigates. A full set of T2 or even T1 drones will handle most PvE frigates and will cause PVP frigates enough problems to distract them.

Fitting a ship with mixed guns means you could potentially not have all your guns firing on one target or even not firing at all, massively reducing your DPS. If you take crystals that have different range modifiers on them you can compensate for the range of most of your targets by exchanging them as you fight.
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Re: Don't mix guns?
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2009, 04:19:03 am »
Web, good.
Drones, better.
Manually piloting to reduce transversal, does it need saying?


serpentsmile

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Re: Don't mix guns?
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2009, 09:56:15 am »
kk thanks for the quick answers everyone!

Cattegirn

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Re: Don't mix guns?
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2009, 07:30:02 pm »
I've seen arguments against mixing guns on the basis of range.  What about signature radius?  Is there a post on that?

SghnDubh

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Re: Don't mix guns?
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2009, 08:17:34 pm »
I've seen arguments against mixing guns on the basis of range.  What about signature radius?  Is there a post on that?

What does sig radius have to do with this?

Have you read the site? www.dontmixguns.com

You need ALL guns putting damage out ALL the time so that you maximize the damage you do with EVERY shot against a SINGLE target.

Problems hitting your target? Pilot your ship better.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 08:20:44 pm by SghnDubh »

Cattegirn

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Re: Don't mix guns?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2009, 09:01:44 pm »
I've seen arguments against mixing guns on the basis of range.  What about signature radius?  Is there a post on that?

What does sig radius have to do with this?

Have you read the site? www.dontmixguns.com

You need ALL guns putting damage out ALL the time so that you maximize the damage you do with EVERY shot against a SINGLE target.

Problems hitting your target? Pilot your ship better.

Wow, nice attitude.  Yes, I read the site. 

And if you don't know what sig radius has to do with it, you are the one that needs to pilot your ship better!

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Re: Don't mix guns?
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2009, 09:03:50 pm »

Dude.

I have a great attitude. What is the problem?

Now please explain what sig radius has to do with mixing guns? I'm really interested in your question.

SghnDubh

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Re: Don't mix guns?
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2009, 09:17:33 pm »
Sig radius is the relative size of the target as your guns sees it. Smaller guns can track faster targets better. Larger turrets have a harder time tracking smaller, faster targets, and hitting them. So a battleship's big guns move slower and fire more inaccurately at a smaller sig radius.

Your question about sig radius is really this question:

Should I put 4 large turrets and 2 small turrets on my (larger) ship so that I can hit smaller ships?

And the answer is no. You should fit a webber or fly with a buddy who can tackle in his inty/dessie/cruiser.

Or, you should pilot better. Instead of sitting in space while a smaller ship closes inside your optimal and orbits with high transversal or radial (known as speed-tanking), you should be prepared to anticipate this and perhaps align and afterburn INTO the closing small ship to surprise him and get into smartbomb range. THAT'S what I mean by piloting better.


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Re: Don't mix guns?
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2009, 09:23:03 pm »
I've seen arguments against mixing guns on the basis of range.  What about signature radius?  Is there a post on that?

What does sig radius have to do with this?

Have you read the site? www.dontmixguns.com

You need ALL guns putting damage out ALL the time so that you maximize the damage you do with EVERY shot against a SINGLE target.

Problems hitting your target? Pilot your ship better.

Wow, nice attitude.  Yes, I read the site. 

And if you don't know what sig radius has to do with it, you are the one that needs to pilot your ship better!

yes its a nice attitude.

Now as to sig radius.  The same exact logic applies.  if you mix guns you do low to mediocre damage against your target.

Take for example engaging a frigate using a battleship.  Under the assumed setup derived from your question, the battleship has 2 small guns, 2 medium guns and 2 large guns. 

Given this, not including drones) the only damage you are doing is with the 2 small guns.  Sig radius does't come into account because tracking is the dominant feature in this scenario.  So out of 6 possible guns, only 2 of them are effective. 

The frigate pilot is laughing his ass off right about now.

take that same setup against a cruiser.  the 2 small guns may or may not be doing damage based on range and the large guns still aren't tracking.  again, only 2 of the 6 guns are really effective.

The cruiser pilot is laughing his ass off right about now.

Take the same setup against a battleship.  the small and medium guns may or may not be in range but they still do little damage against the hp of another battleship and the 2 large guns do not amount to a significant amount of dps considering the maximum possible damage a properly fit ship could cause.

The battleship pilot is laughing his ass off right about now.

are you seeing a pattern yet?

Sig radius determines how well you hit and can reduces the damage taken.  However by mixing guns you still end up with the same problem of not maximizing your damage against a target.  Sig radius doesn't matter because the very principle of maximizing your damage DOESN'T CARE about the specifics.  It cares about the generalities.  The generality is that mixing guns and mixing ranges will AUTOMATICALLY reduce your damage and make you less effective.

So in conclusion, please pardon Sghn as this principle has been enumerated time and again and questions such as yours have been answered again and again in multiple venues.

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Cattegirn

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Re: Don't mix guns?
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2009, 09:44:27 pm »
Corrected info
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 11:11:18 pm by adam12 »

Cattegirn

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Re: Don't mix guns?
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2009, 09:50:52 pm »
corrected info
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 11:11:42 pm by adam12 »

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Re: Don't mix guns?
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2009, 10:11:50 pm »
There nothing piddly about the dps difference between the varying gun sizes.  While your argument sounds logical it falls short in practice and in game mechanics.  In fact you have even indicated that your own logic is false.

Quote
In fact, often a ship will do much better overall against a wider variety of targets using all medium guns and leaving off large turrets entirely.

Why don't you evaluate that statement there as it relates to the entirety of your argument because you have just stated that having an entire rack of medium guns is more effective than mixing guns.

However underlying your entire argument is a gross expectation on how to fight.  In fact that expectation is rather shallow and rather.... simple.

You are entering a fray with a ship attempting to have the capability to take on whatever comes its way.  in this you have made the fundamental error of giving your opponent the surety of being stronger than you in any single or multiple respect.  Basically you have, by default, given your opponent the advantage in every situation.

EVE is a rock/scissors/paper dynamic because the ships that try to be a roscissaper get destroyed quickly. 

Not to be rude but your arguments sound more the nature of a mental exercise rather than the knowledge of hard won experience.

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SghnDubh

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Re: Don't mix guns?
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2009, 10:46:49 pm »
Adam,

Not trying to insult you, so don't get your knickers in a knot. Your argument about mixing guns is what the real life actors on Star Trek call "technobabble."

The goal of a pilot is to find a range where the range penalty doesn't reduce the chance to hit by too much, and the turret is still able to track the target.

In the simplest terms, if you are sitting still and a target is closing on you, this scenario applies: If you mix guns, then some guns will hit at long range, some at medium range, and some at short range -- assuming you are standing still and your target is moving toward you.
If you don't mix guns, then there is a range window where your target will have to absorb the full amount of damage that all of your guns dish out.

Scenario 1:
You are a battleship. You are firing on an incoming frigate. You have mixed guns: 6 heavies and 2 mediums.
You are moving slow. The target is closing on you fast.
Your 6 heavies will only be able to hit the target for a short amount of time. Shouldn't you have had all 8 hitting it?
Ok so your 2 mediums come on line within a smaller given range. You've traded 8 heavies hitting for strong damage, for 2 mediums hitting for, really, not much damage. And only 2 guns out of what, 8 slots! And only for a small amount of time, because the target will be inside those medium's falloff quickly, and any "sig radius advantage" you have is gone.

Scenario 2:
You're a battlecruiser and you're fighting a battlecruiser. You're "smart" -- you've mixed your guns so that 3 are small beams and 3 are medium pulses -- this should maximize your range window. Even though you have a higher chance to hit (sig radius calcs) with the small guns, you are still doing much less overall damage with the smalls. Plus by your reasoning, the mediums would do good damage.

But!

The lower the target's transversal velocity and the farther away it is, the easier it is to hit with any gun. The higher the transversal and the closer a target is, the harder it is to hit. Since you're fighting a BC, you'll get better damage if you can stay farther away from it, so you should have a rack of medium guns firing and you should pilot your ship to keep the enemy within your optimals.

And that rule goes for any ship that you're fighting--regardless of size.

Medium guns hit large slow targets very accurately (compared to large guns) but they hit medium targets less so and small targets even worse, while smalls might (MIGHT) have a slightly better chance to hit but simply don't dish out enough dps. Again your goal is to fly your ship within the range of your full rack of medium guns, or web your target so that you don't have to fly your ship so aggressively.

Bottom line, sig radius is a consideration but not as big a factor as keeping all of your ONE gun type trained on your target, keeping that target in your optimals, and keeping its relative transversal velocity low.

Bottom bottom line?
This is taken from a guy a lot smarter than me on an old eve guide: The goal for every pilot is to find a distance where the range penalty doesn't reduce the chance to hit by too much and the turret is still able to track the target.

By that logic, you should have all guns the same so that you can bring them to bear within that range and speed target, and if you can't, you need to move your ship to a place where you can, either by distancing yourself from your target or slowing your target down substantially. Why do you think 20+km webbers sell for so much on the market?

« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 11:14:39 pm by SghnDubh »

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Re: Don't mix guns?
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2009, 11:26:06 pm »
Some back of the envelope calcs.

A heavy pulse laser II (which is a medium gun) and
A medium beam laser II (which is a small gun) (love CCP's names here?  :P  )
Using standard crystals and no additional modifiers or bonuses.

Versus

An executioner coming in with a high transversal velocity of 500 and a sig radius of 33.

The small gun will have between 50% and 84% chance to hit between 5 km and 12 km, respectively. After that, the chance to hit rockets south.
The medium gun will only have a 12% chance to hit at about 15m.

Expand that sig radius to 165, which is what a 1MN MWD penalizes you for (500%). Remember, this is just rough calcs.

Now:
Your medium guns get a greater than 50% chance to hit starting at 5km, and 100% chance to hit at their optimal which is 12.5km.
So why would you mix guns? Just web your target and hit him with all medium guns at 12km. That salvo will hurt! Even if he cuts his MWD, he's toast!

Or:
JIMBO, look out, he's coming right for us!
Sig rez of 33, transversal of 10.
Chance to hit is over 50% for both gun types until 12.5km (optimal) so again, why WOULDN'T you mount all medium guns for max damage?



« Last Edit: February 28, 2009, 09:18:59 am by SghnDubh »

alganhar

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Re: Don't mix guns?
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2009, 12:56:31 am »
Eve is not real life, where wet navy ships carry a variety of weapons to deal with long range, medium range and short range threats.

The entire point behind ship to ship combat in Eve is to destroy the hostile ship in as short a time as possible, for that, you have to bring all your weapons to bear for the maximum possible time... and just as importantly, do it in as simple a manner as possible.

I have seen a lot of people who state that mixing guns, then mixing and matching ammo types to equalise ranges is the way to go, sounds great in theory, and if Eve were the real world, it would work. Unfortunately, Eve is not the real world, and often what sounds good in theory is simply impractical.

The fact is, you are creating two problems for yourself. The first, is you only have a short engagement window in which you can bring all your guns to bear on your target and inflict maximum DPS, the second is you are adding a whole new level of complexity when it comes to micromanaging your ship in combat.

What do I mean by that? Well, instead of keeping aware of the range of one weapon with all its ammo types, yu now have to be aware of the differing ranges of ALL your weapons with their ammo types... and you have a constant juggling match to ensure all your guns have the right ammo to inflict damage at the range your target is at. Add that to the fact you are likely managing your cap, you are pulsing tank to keep yourself going, you may well be pulsing speed mods to maintain your range, you are manually flying to increase or decrease transversal depending on your needs... having to switch ammo for half your guns half way through a fight because your target is too close takes your attention away from what you should really be doing, and thats a good way to lose your ship.

Eve combat simply doesnt work like that, Eve combat is not about micromanaging multiple weapons to hit a target, the mantra of Eve combat is really very, very simple.

Dictate range.

In short, you pick your weapon, say Blasters, and you fit your ship to dictate the range, you fit your ship in a manner that maximises your chances of getting into range... and STAYING in range. With blaster ships that means MWD, scram, webs, keep your target in your guns tracking arc and make sure he stays there.

Experience has taught many of us, that mixing guns (or missiles) simply does not work. Thats not theorycrafting, we are not saying that because we think we are right, or it makes fitting look tidier. We are saying it because experience has taught us that this is correct.

In Eve you pick the range you want to work at, you pick the weapons that work at that range... then you fit your ship in such a manner that it is YOU who dictates range... not your target. In the Rock/paper/scissors world of Eve there is no one fit that can deal with all threats, its simply impossible... you avoid what you cant defeat, and you engage what you can defeat...

Only a muppet engages a Pilgrim in a blasterboat... but only a stupid pilgrim pilot engages a Drake (or a very confident one with a very expensive fit... but thats another matter)

Everything is good in moderation, even excess is good in moderation.

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Re: Don't mix guns?
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2009, 10:55:07 am »
Ok guys, thanks for the info.

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Re: Don't mix guns?
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2009, 07:52:48 pm »
for example, if you put small guns on a cruiser instead of medium ones, doesn't mean you'll be able to kill frigates

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